1plus1equals1

"The Shack"

2009-05-07T04:22:00.000-07:00

Would you believe that we have only just read this life-changing book? Mind you....we have read excerpts, reviews, the story of the writer and his own blog so felt we understood what it was all about. But there's nothing like reading it in its entirity which I (Liz) haven't taken the time to do just yet. Trevor read it over one day and was very impressed - not only for the obvious help which this book would be to people who have unanswered questions about God and his interest in our lives, but for the clear statements about women and men.

Without one bible quotation, there is so much 'doctrine' spread through the chapters and the issue of equality is well demonstrated and explained. Maybe this wasn't the author's intention (maybe it was one of the reasons for writing the story) but it comes across loud and clear that God and his ways are not always as we have been taught or even as we perceive with our limited vision. The whole character of God shows up beautifully, and without a shred of piousness or 'churchiness' we are embraced by God's love and concern for each individual.

If there are still people like us who haven't got around to checking out the story (fiction) in 'The Shack', maybe this is a timely reminder that it is worth the effort.

The Story of our Lives

2009-05-02T05:04:00.000-07:00

This appears to be the story of our lives. Always apologising for the fact that we are not writing any new posts on our own blog site. It could be that we are so preoccupied with the CBE blog site, the Scroll, that we haven't given any quality time to this one. Liz keeps on reminding me that we don't have to be writing about equality on here either, even though that is our passion. We could be writing about all manner of things, like what we do in our leisure time. Just last week we did a whole lot of canoeing up a lazy river, but we don't have the pictures to prove it! Why, because we were not game to carry a camera in that watery world. Or, we could write about how we love to spend time down at our pristine beach, 800 metres from our front door! And yes, we do have a picture of that. The reason being that I'm experimenting with uploading photos from the 6,000 or so that we have on our computer. What I haven't figured out yet is how to place them on the page so that the layout looks a little better than is shown on this preview. Now that we've got a bit of a handle on how to publish photos to our blog we can talk about other things that we do in retirement, like snorkelling, bushwalking and looking after our grandchildren so that their parents can have some personal time. That means more photos of those very significant things. We may even experiment with a video clip! All that is to come.

Billabong

2008-04-28T03:08:00.000-07:00

What a great name for an Aussie Church. Liz and I went there last Sunday to meet up with some old friends. One couple that we've known for quite some time and another friend who has made this her church home. It's quite a unique church plant, sponsored by the Uniting Church of Australia. We absolutely loved being there. Moreso because the service emphasis was on women serving Christ. For that reason almost all of the service participants for the day were women, including the speaker. A humorous video clip was shown at the beginning of a woman singing, very rapidly, the 250 words that a Mum is likely to say in a day. Words that may be repeated everyday!!! The title of the Encounter message was, 'Mere Women'. A seasoned female Pastor and missionary gave the talk and questions were invited from the congregation. People participated in a quite lively way. Also a chinese person from mainland China shared how she found Christ while a student here in Australia and how she is received in the workplace as both a 'boss' over men and a Christian. That was very refreshing and inspiring. God is so good, reaching into the life of this person so schooled in communism. The children, once they returned from their specialised class time joined in the worship and seemed to be right up with what was going on, even in the sharing of communion. Perhaps the whole atmosphere was enhanced by the fact that the service took place in a big white marquee (ten) on land that includes a genuine billabong, and a sheep to boot! All in all it was a great experience and Christ honouring conversation continued at the 'cuppa' time afterwards. Will certainly be returning there as time permits.

2008-04-23T07:36:00.001-07:00

"Women's Meetings"

2008-04-23T07:26:00.000-07:00

One of my pet annoyances in church life is the syndrome of having special meetings just for women.

Is it because women are seen as having special needs and so need unique programs ?
Or is it to give women a place to share openly about their lives and spiritual growth ?

Of course there is the real need for women who have young children at home and can't go out at night to regular home groups to have opportunity for fellowship and learning more from the bible in study groups. I'm thinking even more about the sort of meetings which make women out to be a 'special case' - a class of people who have to be encouraged all the time as what their particular role is in life and how God has created them for a particular role in life.

Even the groups which major on health, beauty, personal development etc. all leave me with the feeling that somehow women need special 'handling' over and above other Christians (namely men) I know there are some women out there who feel affirmed with all this attention, but I have always felt demeaned by such separatist gatherings and just want to be know as a 'Christian'.

I'm interested to read if others feel this way, because I suspect there are heaps of women

No end of trouble

2008-04-16T00:26:00.000-07:00

You may have wondered why we hadn't posted on here for a while. Well, there's a very good reason, which may seem, to the rest of you out in the blogosphere a bit dumb. We couldn't remember our password so couldn't get in!!! I know, I know, all we needed to do was to scrap the old password and begin a new account with a revised password. So, we've done that and are back on air. In the meantime we have had a lot of activity over on the CBE blogsite, The Scroll (see link) and since we have been made administrators we have even more reason to be spending a lot more time there. But even so, we do want to regularly check in here, not just with equality stuff, even though that is our passion, but ordinary stuff as well. Like, what we've been up to of late and stuff that we are getting out of the Word that might bless others as well. We really miss, since no longer being in paid ministry (due to retirement), the almost daily involvement of sharing with others from God's Word and being a part of their growth in Christ. Admitted we can still do that through this medium and with our immediate family, including 8 grandchildren, but it's not the same as the church community and the interaction and ministry opportunities that go along with church life. We are really enjoying retirement, don't get me (Trevor) wrong but now that we've had it a bit easier we are both chafing at the bit to share current insights into God's word. For Liz there's also the music component. She's really missing worship leading and playing for a congregation. We have a piano and music at home but it's not the same as inspiring others to sing and worship God in the Sunday celebrations or Home Group times. Attending is not the same as leading. We don't want to be pew warmers!

Where have we been?

2008-02-15T02:11:00.000-08:00

We just need to get something back on here because it has been sooooo long. I guess that one of the reasons is that we've been posting and commenting so much on the Scroll for the last few months that we've not given ourselves time to post on our very own blogsite. Besides, I guess we are thinking, "Well, who's going to notice anyway?" But, that's not the point is it! We are as committed to biblical equality as ever and circumstances only dictate that it is even more of a necessity. Our difficulty at the moment is finding a church that is as fully committed to equality as we are. Some appear to be but on closer examination may have given some freedoms for women to be involved in certain aspects of ministry but, are still a closed book when it comes to who is the boss in the home. The whole headship thing. That's the sticking point. Many churches are keen to tell us how far they have come and what concessions they are prepared to make, but balk at the headship in the home question. Anyway, it's not as if we are not finding enough to do and churches to visit in the meantime. Thankfully God knows.

Would the men please speak up!

2007-10-15T07:28:00.000-07:00

In conversation with someone today, I heard of two Christian husbands who were intimidated by the expectancies put on them by the proponents of the belief that men should lead in all things, be the 'head of the home' etc. I'm sure that not all men have the huge egos which they are said to have and not all men enjoy having power over other people. If there are men reading this who would be relieved if they were told that God didn't expect these things of them, please speak up and let us encourage you to be who God has made you to be and enjoy being truly yourself in Christ.

LONG TIME NO WRITE

2007-10-06T04:15:00.000-07:00

I can't believe it's been so long since either of us wrote something on this blog. Our excuse is that we have been busy writing and reading the hundreds of excellent posts on the CBE blog "The Scroll". If you haven't gone there yet, check it out!

I have decided to write on here at least once a week just in case someone drops by and wants to correspond after reading something a bit more up to date. We find ourselves discussing equality all the time and thinking of new reasons why it is so logical, appealing and biblical.

One thought which occured to me this week was the one of being a servant to each other in marriage and within the church family life. A servant does what the other person requires or would like, not what the servant feels is best for the one being served. So, how is that many use the term 'servant leader' and talk about 'having the last word' in times of disagreement etc.
If we are really serving one another we will do as Jesus said and "Do to others what we would like done to us"

1plus1equals1: 1plus1equals1

2006-12-11T06:30:00.000-08:00

1plus1equals1: 1plus1equals1: "BlogThis"

CHANGING THE MINDSET

It is very evident that the cultural mindset over sucha long time isdeeper than many first imagined and so it is no wonder that it keeps resurfacing in the most unlikely places. It occurs to me that something that has taken hundreds of years to become entrenchend will not go away just by careful exegesis and teaching.
Attitudes will change in the same way they developed - very slowly and with repeated statements and demonstrated truth. We need to find ways of "speaking the truth in love" to those who have differing beliefs about gender issues and use opportunities as they occur to encourage a better way to speak and act in the company of women and men.
For myself, I know that I foten don't take issues with thigns which are said for two reasons. Either it seems as if I am defending myself or I don't want to spoil the great fellowship we have with friends by pointing out something they've said which perpetuates the stereotypes. Perhaps we need to move away from personal hurt and see it as a slight on the very character of God - then we may feel more freedom to confront people who unwittingly make distinction between women and men followers of Jesus. However we do it, it will probably be a long process which will bear fruit later.

One example of an opportunity I had to "Australianise" a series of parenting books which have been written from a complementarian perspective. While doing this I was able to change words such as "man's nature" to "human nature" and include the word "parents" instead of the continual reference to "mum" (read mom) as though mothers were always the primary care-givers. I probably won't be around to see what difference this will make to the thousands who will read this material, but hopefully it will permeate their thinking and have a lasting result. Some of us will have to be content with "picking out the stones" to prepare the ground for the good seed of biblical truth to take root.

Choosing a Marriage Partner

2006-11-16T17:51:00.000-08:00

Attending another marriage ceremony on the weekend and hearing someone's casual comments about a Christian school program designed to prepare young people for marriage, that was hierarchy based, stirred the following thoughts.

Suppose a prospective husband, serious about Christian commitment, were choosing a partner and he was committed to the hierarchical model, would he be on the lookout for:

a) A gentile, very soft and feminine woman who would readily expect and accept his male leadership? or ... would he
b) Not be too concerned until after the marriage and then gradually dominate the wife into submission? or ...
c) Have a loving partnership and mutual consideration in courtship, then switch to hierarchy once married?

It would seem to me that one or all of the above would be the desired options or outcomes that a person schooled in that particular line of thinking would be encouraged to adopt.

Whereas, on the other hand, if the prospective husband was equally as serious about Christian commitment but had a more egalitarian approach he could be coming at it from an entirely different direction. He would be on the lookout for:

a) A woman committed to the same passion for Christ as himself, regardless of temperament.
b) A woman at ease with her femininity but not afraid to voice an opinion in mixed company.
c) A woman so secure in Christ that she does not need a man to make her life decisions for her.

In this situation you would expect the prospective husband to not be threatened by a capable and gifted woman but rather to be excited about the prospect of a lively partnership where each would submit to the other to discover God's will together.

It bears thinking about.

1plus1equals1

2006-11-16T01:40:00.000-08:00

1plus1equals1

Would really love to hear from people out there who are interested in knowing more about what real equality looks like. It can be just a word. Perhaps you have someone telling you that you are equal but you know that person doesn't understand and perhaps demonstrates a misunderstanding of how others may feel.

We would encourage anyone who has questions on this issue to contact us and learn what the issues are at stake and how we can address them.

We're back home

2006-10-29T00:20:00.000-07:00

Have returned from a 3 months holiday in the Australian outback. Drove 13.000 kms and apart from 8 nights in a house or motel slept in a tent all the way. Wonderful way to experience the outdoors and enjoy seeing the amazing scenery of the "Top End" of Australia.
Seems that there is more interest in equality from those outside the church than within the ranks. It makes good sense to most people that we should share everything and treat each other fairly. It almost seems to be a non-issue in the churches here even though many people (particularly women) are oppressed and marginalised. We would love to be able to teach on the subject of true biblical equality but we don't have churches queuing up for our time and experience.
Part of the problem seems to be with women who don't like to cause problems and berate themselves for feeling hard done by.
I think it begins with little girls pre-school age who need to be affirmed that they are loved for who they and and that they can be anything they desire if they're willing to try. Much of the conversation with female children is regarding needing a boyfriend and being pretty is seen as the most important criteria for success.
Another issue is to teach children that it is more important to be obedient to God than people and that whatever people think of us is nowhere near as important as God's opinion. Most people (boys inc.) seem to grow up trying to please or impress others so are in the market for the false teching of sexual sterotypes in their early years of life.
Maybe someone has experience with teaching young children their instrinsic vale regardless of their gender ?

Good points on the comments

2006-05-30T21:33:00.000-07:00

Hi everyone. Sorry you haven't read anything for some time. I know that for a blog to be effective it should be used constantly, so we will try to remedy that. We may be going on an extended driving trip from the endof July so if that comes about, we'lllet you know when we'll be back on line.

Just read some of the comments and want to encourage you to follow them up. There are some excellent points made there about creation and God's original intention. This seems one of the crucial issues and since not a lot is recorded in Genesis about this, we can conclude that much of what is written in books and articles which promote heirarchy is assumed. If we just look at the verses it suggests that God made people in his image and he made two kinds - women and men. Obviously, if it was 2 men or 2 women, then there would be no more people to populate the earth! Also - the words of God after Eve and Adam sinned were recorded as bad things which would be a result of their disobedience, not just a variant on God's original intention.

Sometimes huge issues which divide the Christian church can be reasoned quite simply but when we do that, opponents say we are using human reasoning and not the Word of God. Let's face it - "we all choose our own experts" - and usually those experts which 'back up our pre-conceived ideas'. I'll admit to that!

One factor which concerns me is how different views paint a picture of God's character of love, justice, compassion etc. God has to be fair in all things or not God at all and there are many places where we are told to not show partiality to others because of their financial or physical state. If we approach the bible from the position of God being good and having human's best interests at all times, then we see things in a different light.

That's all for now - would love to read more from our readers.......Liz

Recent reading

2006-04-06T12:54:00.000-07:00

We've just received our CBE Priscilla Papers and I've read the lead article by MaryKate Morse, titled GenderWars: Biology Offers Insights to a Biblical Problem. This would have to be one of the best distilled articles that I have read on this subject. It comes hard on the heals of my reading at Mary Stewart Van Leeuwen's work, My Brother's Keeper: What the Social Sciences Do (and don't) Tell Us About Masculinity. (Can't wait to get hold of her book, Gender and Grace.)
It's the first time that I've looked seriously at the biology issue. Generally I'd leave that up to the experts in that field. But this article by MaryKate Morse is so compelling, and yet simply put, in it's argument that I cannot but be moved by its content and want to share it all around. I've thought of a whole bunch of people that I'd like to send it to. Not as an, "I told you so," deal, but in a genuine desire to inform others (yes, some are antagonists) of the value of the level of argument in this article.
Her opening lines tell the story, and I quote: "Men and women struggle to understand each other and to thrive together as God intended. God's design of an Edinic relationship where male and female together nurture and steward the earth rarely seems to happen. Women often suffer worldwide from assumptions that they have less status and purposefulness than their brothers. Men often suffer from being alone at the top and alone in the struggle of life's battlefields. Children can suffer the consequences of the ongoing acrimony between parents. Gender wars are destructive." In that section alone there are four very worthwhile Endnotes to reinforce her line of argument up to that point.
It's worth stating the reasoning behind her offering and again I quote: "The problem is Theological, not secular. It began in the Garden, not in the 21st Century... Surprisingly, deciding between the interpretations depends not only on one's underlying theological views, but also on one'sbiological assumptions about the nature of gender... And, as we will see, a synthesis of recent biological discoveries on the essence of femaleness and maleness provides an opportunity to understand more clearly God's intention in Genesis 1-2 and the impact of the fall in Genesis 3. This leads to suggestions for ameliorating the division between males and females that move beyond certain polarizing hierarchicalist and egalitarian views."
It is a great shame that it is so difficult to get people who fall into either of these camps to dialog on the issues. From my experience there is much more tension from the Traditionalist area and one is dismissed as a heritic for even suggesting that certain passages could be interpreted differenty. That's sad because most egalitarian christians have a very high view of scripture. This article by MaryKate could go a long way toward healing that rift. If only people would read it!
The article in its entirety is from Priscilla Papers, Volume 20, Number 1, Winter 2006. I tried to get the link so that I could post it here and you could look it up on the net but at the time of writing my computer could not locate the server.

It's been a while

2006-03-31T06:41:00.000-08:00

My excuse for not getting on with blogging has been that we've had house guests for the last 10 days. Knowing that they were coming meant that we had other things to do in preparation, so no blogs. That doesn't mean that I didn't take time to read other peoples, or do other things on the net, like spend some time checking out the ECA debate forum. Hardly came near the computer while our visitors were actually here though. Too busy talking and showing them around the beauty spots of our seaside abode. It will still take a while to get into the swing of things, but do it we must.
Liz and I are running an 18 week parenting course that's a buzz. Our youngest son and his wife initiated it and we are sharing with 4 other really keen couples. That's keeping us out of mischief too. We just love the way the course stimulates positive and encouraging conversation and the resulting care for each other. As grandparents we are really ready for this. It's great!!!

Time to get down to business

2006-02-27T05:20:00.000-08:00

Now for a brief insight as to why it is that Liz and I are so committed to Biblical equality. As mentioned in our personal profile, we've been in christian ministry for 35+ years and for all of that time were committed to mutuality in the way that we did marriage. For many years it did not impact on our ministry method, except that it will have been obvious to some that I regarded Liz as my best friend and closest ministry confidant. This eventually caused difficulties in a multiple eldership situation where other elders felt that Liz should not be privy to these 'leadership' matters. They felt that Liz was a defacto elder. We didn't really know how to handle it then because we were unfamiliar with the body of literature that was available to address such issues. Whenever we prepared people for marriage we encouraged them to embrace a more mutually submissive style as we felt that it was far more glorifying to God and the best way to serve one another out of reverence for Christ. Because we served in a conservative church environment it was soon obvious that some folks disagreed with our ministry style and objections were raised. I (Trevor) tried to embrace the accepted, traditional, position but found it very uncomfortable and impossible to teach with any conviction. We mostly kept our theological misgivings to ourselves and I avoided any teaching on the sensitive, often disputed passages. Not so long ago a returned missionary couple told us that there were good books written on this subject and we ought to get ourselves informed. So, this we did, which ultimately led to our being aware of an entire worldwide ministry devoted to this issue. I'm speaking of Christians for Biblical Equality (CBE). For us this was like manna from heaven. At last we could identify with other, well informed Christians on this matter of equality and we were not compromising our faith in any way whatsoever. What a wonderful relief this was, and is. Since then we've become even more involved with that organisation and taken advantage of the many book titles and gotten to know some of the authors on a more personal level. For us it is not just a matter of women being equally as gifted as men in their ability to serve in the church. It is that, but more than that, it is equality in the home. Men and women, husbands and wives, can and should direct the home and raise the children together. We believe that this is the reason for much of the spouse abuse that continues to occur in traditional, heirarchical marriages. Traditionalists, or complimentarians, as they are now known argue that you cannot have two heads of a home, someone has to be in charge. We agree, someone does! It would be far better that that person be Christ. If each defers to the other in reverence for Christ, no one person necessarily gets their own way but together they seek to discover what God would have them do as a family. There are all sorts of practical possiblities here that we can share in subsequent posts. Sufficient to say that the above is the principle involved and the Biblical basis for it would be Ephesians 5:21, ...'Submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ.'

The journey has begun

2006-02-21T23:58:00.000-08:00

Not quite sure where this will take us and how exactly we are to link up with like-minded people but I'm sure that we'll learn as we go along. Counless thousands of others have been and are on this road sooo, hang on, here we go.

Making a start

2006-02-21T23:35:00.000-08:00

This whole blogging thing is new to us. Kind of an electronic adventure that's about to begin. We are doing this in the hope of meeting new, but like minded people and sharing ideas and experiences of our christian journey in respect to Biblical equality.